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| "I'm not listening!" |
That’s a trick question, of course! You should never completely ignore feedback.
There are
times when you get feedback (from a critique partner, a beta reader, or even an
agent) that seems useless to you, but even suggestions you aren’t going to use
can tell you something about your manuscript – and the effectiveness of your
story.
For example …
Genre Prejudice (“This
isn’t what I usually read …”) – When I critique a manuscript in a genre I
don’t normally read, I usually warn the writer that my suggestions may reflect
that lack of experience. If the person giving you feedback doesn’t come out and
say this directly, you can still usually tell, because s/he picks on elements
that distinguish your genre. Sometimes, the reader does read your genre, but doesn’t like what you’ve done with it –
or thinks you’ve broken the rules. This is a form of prejudice too, and the
fact is, a unique twist to your genre makes your book stand out from the rest.
How You Learn From
This – Make sure that you have your world-building and genre elements down
pat. A person who doesn’t normally read your genre will critique the unfamiliar
elements and maybe point out some weaknesses you overlooked. If you do break
the traditional rules of your genre, make sure you do it in a consistent and
logical way that actually benefits your story.
Sloppy Reading (“Who
is that character again …?”) – Sometimes it seems as if the person giving feedback
wasn’t paying attention while reading. They ask a question that you just
answered and ask for clarification when you just explained the situation. They
mix up characters.
How You Learn From This
– Just because you explained something doesn’t mean the reader picked it up.
Perhaps the explanation was in the wrong place or buried among extraneous
information. You might need to remind the reader of something you already
mentioned, or provide a more complete explanation. And if your reader is mixing
up characters, consider that their names might be too similar, or you might not
have given them enough distinguishing characteristics.
Piddling details (“What
train did he take and how did he pay the fare?”) – Readers will sometimes ask
for details that seem unimportant or which will slow down the story if you
explain them. You find yourself looking at the critique notes and wondering, “Do
they really care about this, or were they just looking for something, anything to
pick on?”
How You Learn From
This – You may be right and the details requested are not necessary for
telling the story. But make sure you have the answers straight in your own
head, or what seems like a piddling detail might become an actual plot hole.
(ie: There is no train that will get him there in that amount of time, and don’t
you remember, he lost his wallet back in chapter four?!)
Reader Hijacking (“If
I were writing this story …”) – This kind of feedback can be particularly
aggravating, because gosh – it’s not their story! No, you don’t want to turn
that character into a werewolf, and no, you don’t want to change who wins in
the love triangle, and no, you weren’t going to explore that side plot.
How You Learn From
This – If the reader went off and envisioned a totally different story from
the one you planned on telling, then your manuscript must have lacked whatever
it needed to hold his/her attention. Figure out what was missing, and fix it!
Remember: no feedback, no matter how maddening, is ever truly useless!
So true. I find that even if the specifics of the feedback don't fit with the story I'm creating, the reason behind the comments is often important to think about.
ReplyDeleteAndrea -- Yes, even if the feedback itself seems squirrely, it usually reflects a weak area in your manuscript.
DeleteWasn't it Gaiman who said:
ReplyDelete"Whenever someone tells you something is wrong, they're almost always right, and whenever they tell you how to fix it, they're almost always wrong."
One of my favorite quotes! AND the one that got me through my editorial revisions in May and June. I knew when the editor pinpointed areas of the manuscript she wanted changed, a change was most likely needed. But I changed them in the way that made sense to me, not necessarily the way she suggested changing them. And that seemed to work.
DeleteGreat tips. I have learned a lot from critique partners who don't read in my genre. But I do remember if they don't like the genre, because it really can affect their critique and maybe make some of it not right on. I also warn people if I don't read in their genre like you. And I'm really trying to avoid changing their story the way I'd write it.
ReplyDeleteI had a beta reader who complained that my story didn't work because I "broke a rule" -- or rather, messed with an important detail of a very well-known legendary figure. This change was essential to my story and I kept it, but I worked hard at setting it up better, so readers will hopefully say, "That's an interesting twist," rather than "That's not true."
DeleteGreat summary. I appreciate it when people give me feedback on pacing in particular. I want to know where the story is too slow. When I critique, I tend to focus on plot elements, because if there is something off, even if it's a small detail, it really takes me out of the story.
ReplyDeleteFor me, I tend to think certain plot points are obvious and don't need to be spelled out. (They're clear in my head, you see.) I've finally learned to pinpoint feedback questions that make me want to say, "Well, obviously ..." and recognized that no, I didn't make it obvious at all. :D
DeleteGreat post, Dianne! And I love that Gaiman quote that Matt mentioned above :)
ReplyDeleteYes, and it was pointed out to me by husband (interestingly enough) just when I needed to hear it!
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DeleteTypos...
DeleteIf it helps, Dianne, your feedback on my WIP's early pages has been great, it helped me figure out what I suspected was the case, and you told me your truth of what you read, in a real but respectful way. I appreciate that.
I often practice empathy to a fault when reading out of my genres of interest, because no matter how many authors SAY they want brutal honesty, I believe you can honest about what you don't like or get about a book without treating the author like an idiot, not everyone can isolate their emotions, which doesn't mean they don't want to learn, but not every can learn with that brutal instruction.
That's why we have a "War of the Learning Styles" in education right now.
I strongly believe shows like "American Idol" and highly disciplines author's writing books can DAMAGE writers emotionally if taken too close to heart, or all at once, and it's why I'm wary of writing books at times these days.
Of course I own many and learned from them in some way, but I also know I personally don't take to boot camp style instruction, it's why many don't do it for me.
I appreciate books that still give instruction while getting that we're human and if we were so full of ourselves to not improve, we wouldn't buy these books and chat on blogs like this otherwise.
I strongly believe the truly vein wouldn't even attempt what we do reading these craft books and take part on these blogs to better ourselves.
Is that not a fair point?
Wonderful advice Dianne! I have to back you up on the "breaking the rules" thing you experienced with your Beta. I actually really love to see how different writers put a twist on something tired and by doing that it can sometimes make all the difference in the world to a played-out story line and make it fresh and unique again, as well as really stand out.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I thought my twist was pretty clever. But her rejection of it was only partly her dislike of any change to the legend. It was partly my fault for not setting it up better.
DeleteI love your tips, Dianne. This one gave me a laugh, "(ie: There is no train that will get him there in that amount of time, and don’t you remember, he lost his wallet back in chapter four?!)"
ReplyDeleteFunny you should mention names that are too close - during edits this weekend I have two secondary characters that are close, both start with C. I decided to change one, because I was getting confused myself :)
Yes, I've changed names for just that reason, and also read many a book where I *wished* the author had not used names so similar!
DeleteThese are all great tips whether you're writing MG or something else entirely.
ReplyDeleteI think we've all had feedback that made us go "Huh?" no matter what we write!
DeleteThose were really great!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jennifer!
DeleteI disagree. There's a lot of feedback that is meant for the trash. Totally and completely.
ReplyDeleteNever try to fix a story because -one- person lost interest, especially of 10 people didn't. You will break the story for those other 10.
Write your story the way you want to write it and find the audience that likes it.
Feedback is for the details. Grammar/punctuation issues. Places where you left out a detail because it was in your head and didn't make it to the paper. Places where there is confusion.
It's impossible to please everyone, of course. And even after the book is published, readers won't all like it, and reviewers will tell you so.
DeleteBut I think feedback is more than just for details -- it's for pacing and characterization and world-building. Every single piece of feedback I ignored from beta-readers came back to haunt me in the editorial revision process for HarperCollins. Eventually I addressed them all -- in my own way, that's important! -- and I believe the finished project is MUCH better for it, while still being the story I wanted to tell.
Good advice, Dianne! And I love Neil Gaiman's quote. I remind myself of that all the time.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to recite it like a mantra next time I open a feedback letter! :D
DeleteThese are really good ways to look at these problems. I've had people miss a certain character or reference, which used to bug me. But then I realized it's not the reader's job to remember every single detail. If it's important, I'd better make sure it stands out!
ReplyDeleteExactly! That's what I learned from my current editor. All the feedback I received from CPs and betas on the last manuscript -- the feedback that seemed like they weren't remembering what I had "obviously" explained -- my editor helped me to see that was MY fault, not theirs. If readers weren't understanding or remembering what I told them, it's because I wasn't explaining it well enough, or often enough, or in the right places.
DeleteSo, what do you do to avoid the opposite of the above problem, which in my mind is, spelling things out SO MUCH that the reader feels cheated of all discovery and feeling like the author "Handed over all the magic" if you know what I mean...
ReplyDeleteTrust me, I know from experience with beta-readers, being overly specific (I don't mean physical descriptions either) can frustrate readers as much as the writer not being specific enough. Have you faced those challenges, too?
I have and it's part of why the excerpt of my current WIP you read a bit ago, read like so bare that you couldn't picture it clearly. You were right and I will address that in later revision, after a cool-off period.
That came on the coattails of my forthcoming debut novel where I over-detailed and had to pair back what to say versus what not to say, etc.
Sometimes we can learn a lesson TOO WELL.
As a result that makes it hard to move forward with any given story. If your most common feedback is "You over detail everything" the natural tendency is to be sparse to a fault, out of fear over detailing will work against you in the eyes of the reader, genre-specific or not, and that's a maddening place to be it.
Taury, all I can say is that it is a balancing act that takes a long time to get right. Striking the balance between over-detailed and under-detailed takes several tries.
DeleteI would say that if multiple readers have pinpointed a certain passage or aspect, then you haven't hit the right balance yet. Sometimes, a simple, concise solution is best. One brief, well-placed sentence can provide the perfect amount of detail.
But it might take 15 tries to get it right. Maybe more. (So says the person struggling on her opening chapter right this very second.)
If feedback pinpoints one area (even if the individual comments contradict one another), that is a weak area that needs attention. I have often found it useful to deafen myself to the specific complaints/suggestions and ask myself, what can I do to approach this part of the manuscript with more clarity?
Readers know when something is wrong. They usually can't pinpoint why, though. We are left to figure it out.
Thanks for sharing, Dianne, I'm glad it's not just me. Most of the writers I know are far more disciplined than I in this area so I'm glad someone farther on their path than me gets what I feel here.
ReplyDelete